Sleep Questions

What is sleep? Why do we need it?

It is known that going more than about 36 hours without sleep can cause serious physical and psychological problems. The industry that supplies sleeping pills and sleeping aids and beds and pillows is a huge industry. Everybody and almost every animal sleeps.

We spend 1/3 of our lives being unproductive, laying still in the dark. Most genius idea men -- like Bill Gates, Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla, Dean Kamen, etc. -- have stated that they sleep very little, or very fitfully. Many of the world's great inventions have come out of sleeplessness. Feverishness of the mind, racing minds, minds which refuse to sleep often come up with brilliant, unheard-of innovations and connections. Could sleep be a killer of innovation?

Bears hibernate 6 months out of the year. Several other mammals also hibernate, although I'm not sure I could give you a list. They also sleep at night when they're not hibernating. Sleep cycles are generally tied to the night/day cycles of the earth, but some species are nocturnal, sleeping during the day. Astronauts freed from the relentless 24-hour rotation of the earth find that their wake-sleep cycles generally trend toward, I think it's about a 30-hour cycle. Some have even speculated this means the Earth used to revolve slower than it does today.

Which species do not sleep? It has often been stated that fish do not sleep but I believe that's been proved wrong. They don't sleep on a 24-hour cycle, but they "cat nap" (if you'll pardon the malaprop). Some whales (most?), being mammals, sleep as much as land animals. I have heard that grey whales and I think humpbacks sleep vertically, with their heads down and their tails up (how often do they rouse to breathe?)

What about species that live in darkness -- deep sea species, species that live underground or in caves? Do they sleep, and on what schedule? The light/dark schedule nears the poles is 6 months light, six months dark. I know Emperor penguins form a big huddle to keep warm and go into a dormant state, similar to hibernating. Are they sleeping for 6 months at a time? Do they sleep when it's light out?

Inquiring minds need to know. I guess I need to find a book.

I'm not in the same class as Tesla or Kamen, but my mind apparently didn't shut down when I was sleeping. Back in the olden days, when I was still working, I slept soundly (100+-hour work weeks will do that for you), but occasionally, I would awaken in the middle of the night with the solution to some problem that I had been unable to solve for days or even weeks. It was very strange; my eyes would just pop open and I was be wide awake thinking about the solution, feeling the same as if I had been awake and pondering the problem. I learned that I had to keep a pad and pencil on the night stand and take notes, because in the morning, I would remember only that I had solved the problem, but had absolutely no idea what it was. Sometimes I would remember only that I had solved some problem, but not what the problem was. Completely gone.

_Howard wrote:

I learned that I had to keep a pad and pencil on the night stand and take notes, because in the morning, I would remember only that I had solved the problem, but had absolutely no idea what it was. Sometimes I would remember only that I had solved some problem, but not what the problem was. Completely gone.

Fermat's last theorem, eh?

I suggested this book idea to Mary Roach (for whom it would be perfect) and she wrote back this morning to let me know her publisher is already coming out with a book like this, "Dreamland" by David K. Randall.

_Howard wrote:

Sometimes I would remember only that I had solved some problem, but not what the problem was. Completely gone.

Many people believe that is the sole purpose for dreaming. You also hit on the reason why it's difficult to recall.

The thinking goes like this: Because you've been unable to solve your problem during waking hours, (maybe you didn't even suspect there was a problem to be solved), in a different state of consciousness, you're attempting to tell yourself the problem in a different way. With symbolism perhaps.
Seems like it works for you... if you could only remember. But because you were in a different state of consciousness, (deeper, and more aware), you'd have to recreate that state, to recall. Try meditation or hypnosis.
Tell yourself you want to remember. Before you go to sleep, and during the problem solving dream.

Lisa wrote:

Many people believe that is the sole purpose for dreaming.

Pish posh. Most dreams are solid nonsense.

I believe we dream because our brains are feverish little clumps, when you turn off the inputs the damn thing goes haywire and makes up shit.

NoCoPilot wrote:

Lisa wrote:

Many people believe that is the sole purpose for dreaming.

Pish posh. Most dreams are solid nonsense.

I believe we dream because our brains are feverish little clumps, when you turn off the inputs the damn thing goes haywire and makes up shit.

There was a study with rats where they concluded we do in fact solve problems in dreams. It's not something Lisa just pulled out of her ass.

"Whatever the state we're put in, we're still working on the same problems," Deirdre Barrett, a psychologist at Harvard University said. Although dreams might have initially evolved for a different purpose, they likely have been refined over time so they can serve double-duty: help the brain reboot itself and problem-solve.

NoCoPilot wrote:

Lisa wrote:

Many people believe that is the sole purpose for dreaming.

Pish posh. Most dreams are solid nonsense.

I believe we dream because our brains are feverish little clumps, when you turn off the inputs the damn thing goes haywire and makes up shit.

For the most part, you are correct - dreams are crap - but there is some portion of the brain that keeps on working, although not in a dream-like state. That is, there is no accompanying "video clip," no story line, just a sudden, awakening awareness of an answer.. Several engineer friends have told me of the same thing I've experienced, in that they solve long-term or extremely difficult problems in their sleep. Oddly, the same doesn't seem to apply to non-problematic projects; I've never awakened thinking of an on-going task that was not causing significant problems.

Found this I thought you might like NoCo: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/03/11/130311fa_fact_kolbert?currentPage=all

Yeah, this is an old thread, but I found a new study about it. Very interesting, without all the metaphysical crap normally used to explain sleep.

Yeah, I read about it a couple weeks ago. Fascinating.

The part about the brain shrinking while you sleep makes sense to me - I think mine is down to about twenty percent.

But it stays at 20%. Compounded each night.

Confounded would be more accurate in my case.

It would be interesting to compare the physiology of sleep with that of say a comatose state.

That is an interesting question. If, in fact, the human brain does shrink and get flushed out during sleep in the manner of the test mice, how long would that process last if the brain's owner doesn't return to a conscious state within a normal period of time? Would the body at some point say, "Okay. My job here is done." and quit flushing the brain and allow its expansion to normal size? And how often would the body enact this flushing sequence if the brain is never in an alert condition? Very interesting, indeed.

It sounds like coma is metabolically much less active than sleep.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Reduced+midazolam+clearance+must+be+considered+in+prolonged+coma.-a0192852809
Although most of this case is probably due to damage to his liver, kidneys and pancreas.

Oh, yeah. I understood every word in that article. Yes. Yes, I did.
(But remember that I am running on twenty percent.)

During these winter months in Seattle—the solstice was what, yesterday?—it's dark out longer than it's light.  The sun comes up about 7:00am and goes down about 5:00pm.

Our dogs are diurnal. When it gets dark out they head to the bedroom. Consequently this time of year they sleep about 14 hours per day.

Mrs NoCo has taken to going to bed at the same time as the dogs, although she'll watch TV or surf the web on her iPad until 10:00.  But then she doesn't get out of bed until ten a.m., so she still gets twelve hours.

She says ever since she had mono as a teenager—during which she slept 18 hours per day—she's not comfortable getting less than twelve.  Retirement has been a big boon to her well being.

Me, I've always been an early riser.  Four or five a.m. is normal, six is sleeping late. I go to bed at 9 or 10:00 most nights, so that's seven or eight hours right? Since retiring I'm not averse to a nap now and then either.

Still wish I could find a good book on the biology of sleep, its evolutionary history, universality, variations, what happens and why if you don't get enough.

And that "two sleep" thing.  Primitive cultures, early cultures apparently almost universally divide their nights into two sleeps, getting up in the middle to tend the fire or pee or check for danger.  I do that sometimes, if I have a bad dream or an idea that needs to be logged into my computer.
https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/biphasic-sleep#

"Why We Sleep" by somebody Walker.  Should be here next week.

Next up on the to-read pile.

Matthew Walker wrote:

Addressing the question of why we sleep from an evolutionary perspective only compounds the mystery. No matter what vantage point you take, sleep would appear to be the most foolish of biological phenomena. When you sleep, you cannot gather food. When you sleep, you cannot socialize. You cannot find a mate and reproduce. You cannot nurture or protect your offspring. Worse still, sleep leaves you vulnerable to predation. Sleep is surely one of the most puzzling of all human behaviors. On any one of these grounds—never mind all of them in combination—there ought to have been a strong evolutionary pressure to prevent the emergence of sleep or anything like it.

Yet sleep has persisted. Indeed, every animal species carefully studied to date sleeps. This suggests that sleep evolved with—or very soon after—life itself on our planet.

Matthew Walker wrote:

Should you feel drowsy and fall asleep while reading this book, unlike most authors, I will not be disheartened. Indeed, based on the topic and content of this book, I am going to actively encourage that sort of behavior from you. I will take absolutely no offense. On the contrary I would be delighted. 

I wonder if he will take note of dolphin sleep - half the brain sleeps while the other half handles the swimming, looking for predators, etc.

A person’s circadian rhythm is controlled by the suprachiasmic nucleus just above the optic nerve. 40% of the population peaks their internal body temperature around dawn. These are the “morning people.” 30% of people peak in the early afternoon. These are “night owls.”

You cannot change who you are.

Chapter Four: Ape Beds, Dinosaurs, and Napping with Half a Brain

The Rapid Eye Movements of dreaming sleep are not corroborated with what you’re “seeing” in your dreams.

All species sleep, but only birds and mammals dream.