Legalize it!

NoCo lives in a state which legalized cannabis a few years ago.  Howard and I live in states which passed similar referendums this year.  (The vote in Maine was very close and the ballots are being recounted.)

I know both of you guys are upstanding citizens and way too responsible to actively partake in such juvenile behavior but, NoCo, from the sidelines, how do you feel about the way things are developing in your state?  And Howard, any ideas on how legalization will impact the well-established and justly renowned guerilla growing industry?  Besides the usual hand-wringing moralists, there was substantial opposition to Maine's referendum from small-scale growers who were already licensed to supply legal medical marijuana.  I thought their protest was largely self-serving but they were warning of "Big Marijuana" coming in and destroying their livelihoods.  

A related issue — let's say that the Trump administration decides to allow continued legalization on the state level.  (Which is dubious, given Sessions' views on the subject.)  But imagine a country where industrial-scale growing is happening in a dozen good-sized states.  Assuming that production will be largely indoors under artificial light it is estimated that the increased demand for electric power will actually end up affecting distribution of power over the grid.  Not sure Tesla roof shingles would work for HID lighting or even for LEDs, given the problems with energy storage.   Sure, it can be grown outdoors, but I'm not sure I trust large-scale commercial growers not to overdo the various chemicals and fungicides. And wait until the marketers get involved. Ugh.

I voted for the referendum measure but I would have preferred a simple decriminalization with no prospect of a commercial (taxable) recreational cannabis industry, keeping production at the cottage level. But tax revenue is really the big sell here, not individual freedom.

Legalization happens not for moral or ethical reasons, but because the state can tax the shit out of it.  Washington expects to reap $1 billion (with a 'b') from pot sales by 2020, and that ain't seeds and stems.  Politicians love anything that generates tons of cash: drugs, gambling, gun sales.

Logistically, pot shops are very tightly regulated.  They're 21-and-older only, they're strictly cash (because banks aren't allowed to deal with them), they're heavily fortified and try to be inconspicuous (with names like "Green Health" and "Purple Haze").  You find them in out-of-the-way or "economically-recovering" neighborhoods only, and generally they're in stand-alone buildings, not strip malls.  Where one exists, there's usually six within a couple blocks (due to zoning). You show your ID in an outer room, then get led into an inner room where the product is kept behind the counter.  It's expensive, but well-organized and I hear very potent (I do not partake).

In Amsterdam the "coffee shops" (Dutch euphemism -- here in Seattle "coffee shop" means something entirely different!) are much more like any other business, they're cheek-by-jowl with other businesses, you don't have to show ID, and the product is on display to the wandering public.  Very casual and accepted by everyone.  And the shops are all over town, even high rent districts.

In both cases, lighting up on premises is discouraged but happens.

By the way, we've had some interesting discussions on this before:
https://unintelligibledebate.forumotion.com/t25-wa-marijuana-laws?highlight=marijuana

And your comments on grow houses?  Although it is legal here to buy and use MJ, it is still illegal to grow it.  Large scale growing operations -- to supply the $250,000,000 annual sales -- have to be "under-the-radar," hidden from authorities, blacked out windows, carefully disguised electricity bills.  It's a very schizophrenic and frankly immature system.

Will Trump reverse the Cole memo, which instructed law enforcement to look the other way on pot?  They certainly COULD, since it was done by executive order and not by legislation.  But with such huge sums of revenue involved, and the Civil War-era* emphasis on "state's rights" I kinda doubt they will.




* - the last time America was "great"

kilo wrote:

And Howard, any ideas on how legalization will impact the well-established and justly renowned guerilla growing industry?

There are currently two marijuana-growing industries in California. One is legal and consists of relatively-small-scale suppliers of medical cannabis. The other is, of course, the large-scale illegal growers. Both of these industries were opposed to the legalization of the weed. They are rightly concerned about their profit margin and, in the case of the medical suppliers, they are concerned about their continued existence. Although the new administration may prove to be a bigger threat to the continued existence of the medical suppliers.

There probably won't be any legal growers or retailers for another year or more because of the strict licensing requirements and the incredibly slow pace at which local governments will address the issue. One thing in the new law that I applaud is the restriction of all licenses to those who can prove they have been continuous residents of California since January 1, 2015 or before (applicable through 2019). This will help the local businessmen stave of the predations of "Big Marijuana" for a while at least.

kilo wrote:

Assuming that production will be largely indoors under artificial light...

I don't think that's a valid assumption. Certainly, some production will take place indoors, but I can't see massive production taking place there. It's just too expensive.

kilo wrote:

I'm not sure I trust large-scale commercial growers not to overdo the various chemicals and fungicides.

I saw an interview with a businessman who had already drawn up plans - both financial and physical - to begin massive growing operations in the San Joaquin Valley. I would probably try to stay away from any of that dope; the soil in the valley has been so terribly overused and abused that I don't think a plant that is dependent on soil quality would do well there. And they would have to use large amounts of fertilizer in most places there. Even the air over there is so filthy with agriculture stench that the weed would probably stink.

NoCoPilot wrote:

In Amsterdam the "coffee shops" (Dutch euphemism -- here in Seattle "coffee shop" means something entirely different!) are much more like any other business, they're cheek-by-jowl with other businesses, you don't have to show ID, and the product is on display to the wandering public.  Very casual and accepted by everyone.  And the shops are all over town, even high rent districts.

In both cases, lighting up on premises is discouraged but happens.

The drug laws in the Netherlands are widely misunderstood here. Drugs are illegal there, but they have a policy of tolerance on "soft" drugs. The "coffee shops" really are coffee shops. They just happen to also sell weed. But it is illegal to grow or to sell marijuana on a wholesale level. Until the grass gets inside the coffee shop, it is illegal to possess or to use. The recent conservative government is making things tougher on the coffee shops. I don't know how things are right now, but for several years, the government has been trying to get laws passed that would restrict the sale of cannabis to citizens of the Netherlands and require ID to purchase it. They  have been cracking down of the growers of weed and, of course, all of the distribution activity is illegal.

NoCoPilot wrote:

Although it is legal here to buy and use MJ, it is still illegal to grow it.

It  is my understanding that licenses are issued in Washington for commercial growing of marijuana. Have I got that wrong? But I believe that Washington is the only state with legal weed that does not allow people to grow it at home.

_Howard wrote:

Certainly, some production will take place indoors, but I can't see massive production taking place there. It's just too expensive.

I've read that most of the illegal domestic crop is already being grown indoors. (And much of the legal crop as well, see my link.) And in this area of the country you couldn't reliably harvest a consistently high-quality product; there's just too much uncertainty with regard to the weather. Now hemp is a different story and production of industrial hemp is legal here.

Quote :

I saw an interview with a businessman who had already drawn up plans - both financial and physical - to begin massive growing operations in the San Joaquin Valley.

There is bound to be a lot of that. And a lot of money going down the drain.

NoCo wrote:

By the way, we've had some interesting discussions on this before

Yeah, I actually remember reading that way back then. I'd forgotten about that Gann guy, though. And, just to complete the stroll down Memory Lane, here's what Martin's up to: Secular West — big Trump supporter and Brexit enthusiast.

I don't know how much of the marijuana crop in California is being grown indoors, but I can't imagine that it is a majority. Marijuana is the biggest cash crop in the sate - about $3.5 billion yearly. The Green Triangle is where much, probably most, of the outdoor cultivation occurs, both legal and illegal. Unfortunately, in the cities there is a lot of illegal growing in houses.

I don't doubt that in many states outdoor growing would not work well. Additionally, new strains have been developed that require more attention than a wife, and these will continue to be grown indoors. As of now, outdoor-grown cannabis tends to not be as strong in THC as indoor plants. Hell, when you and I were kids, marijuana still grew wild by the side of the road. There's a reason it's called weed. They even mentioned it in the old cowboy books and movies: "What's wrong with the herd, Jim?" "I think they've been eating loco weed."

This article is a couple of years old, but it gives you a good idea of what a large, legal indoor grow operation is like.

I don't see the link you referred to.

Willett's descent is not surprising, but still kinda sad. He used to be more reflective than that.

I believe in WA all pot is grown indoors -- not enough sun, too much rain. The legal stuff sold by shops is supposedly very tightly cultivated, with foreshortened harvest, controlled light/dark cycles, elaborate fertilizer and pruning, etc. to produce top potency.

If I lived in Washington, I would stay indoors for sure. Not a big fan of rain.

This article has some plant care guidelines for marijuana. If you peruse the pages on that web site, you will soon realize that growing quality weed requires a lot of time and knowledge. Indoors or out, it is not a casual undertaking. I have decided not to grow my own, after a couple months of correspondence with the guy who owns the web site. He has offered me some very good deals, and I have a great location in the unfinished basement, with a dedicated 20-amp circuit, but it's just too damned much work for me. It would be easier to just get a medical card - we have a new doctor in town: office hours are Tuesday 2-5pm.

Not to mention undoubtedly cheaper.

I've been trying to figure out a medical angle for a while now — unfortunately, hell tragically, while nearly 70 and having spent most of my working life doing landscaping and construction I still show insufficient signs of physical decrepitude to earn a 'green card'. I could probably use the 'deranged Vietnam vet' ploy but faking a PTSD just seems too smarmy.

_Howard wrote:

The "coffee shops" really are coffee shops.

You can't get a cup of joe in one.