Bradley Manning: Traitor or Whistleblower?

Interesting case, possibly finally coming to trial. Glass houses and all that.

The government should be required to show proof of actual harm caused by Manning's actions before being allowed to take him to trial for anything other than trivial charges. The government should also be sued in both criminal and civil courts for the treatment he has been subjected to during a period in which he has not been convicted of anything.

Heh, Manning's case continues to generate interesting, though seldom-reported news.

A petition to give him the Nobel Peace Prize.

The secrecy surrounding his trial has been breached.

And Manning's case is just another aspect of Cheney/Rove's war on truth.

The revelations of NSA whistleblower Ed Snowden further complicate the trial of Bradley Manning.  If Snowden is allowed to get away with it, must Manning be acquitted?  How many more whistleblowers will step forward if Manning and Snowden are marginalized by the government?

Here's my deal:
1) BIGGEST ISSUE Amish busdriver rule: If you don't believe in doing stuff like the NSA does, like tapping peoples phones and generally ignoring the Constitution, then why sign up for the 200k a year job with them? If you sign up and take the check the blood is as much on your hands as any of them.  

2) smaller issue but still: He seems very disingenuous and attention seeking.

3) personal thoughts: Who didn't know they were doing this? What really concerns me is the little details we don't realize are helpful to putting the poor dudes in the field in the line of trouble. Snowshit and his 200k a year aren't in need, but the poor sap who signs up for the military because it's that or the welfare line is. I don't support anything that may put my fellow low income cannon fodders in the way of harm.

There is nothing more dangerous to those troops you're worried about than a bunch of criminals in the government at home.

richard09 wrote:

There is nothing more dangerous to those troops you're worried about than a bunch of criminals in the government at home.

True. But nothing Snowden has done releases us from the grips of criminals. I'd argue the majority of the governments throughout our history and the world at large's has been criminals in power. You get the occasional Kennedy but they're rare, if you ask me.

Oh, Kennedy had his demons too.

Politics is a dirty business, always has been.  Each generation thinks theirs are the worst.

I can agree with that.

Now that it's been a few days since the story broke I still have no real answer for why on earth he signed up with the NSA to start with. I mean what would possess one (besides the obvious 200k a year) to sign up with such an organization if one was of the mind that such things were wrong? I need that answer to even begin to see him as anyone worthy of trust or attention.

Spying on the country's enemies is a necessary and ethically OK procedure. Why shouldn't he participate in that? And just spying on random American civilians, in very large numbers, to little or no good purpose, is unconstitutional and ethically very much not OK. Why shouldn't he refuse to do that, and also warn the rest of us that less principled people than he are going right ahead and doing it. In fact, doesn't he have a moral obligation to blow the whistle on the law-breakers?

Jenni wrote:

I can agree with that.

Now that it's been a few days since the story broke I still have no real answer for why on earth he signed up with the NSA to start with. I mean what would possess one (besides the obvious 200k a year) to sign up with such an organization if one was of the mind that such things were wrong? I need that answer to even begin to see him as anyone worthy of trust or attention.

Read today's news. Apparently Snowden went into the NSA with political subversion on his mind.

06.24.2013

richard09 wrote:

Spying on the country's enemies is a necessary and ethically OK procedure. Why shouldn't he participate in that? And just spying on random American civilians, in very large numbers, to little or no good purpose, is unconstitutional and ethically very much not OK. Why shouldn't he refuse to do that, and also warn the rest of us that less principled people than he are going right ahead and doing it. In fact, doesn't he have a moral obligation to blow the whistle on the law-breakers?

From what I understand of the situation the NSA is not really "spying" on ordinary Americans, despite Fox News' spin. What they're doing is running emails through software that searches for certain trigger words. They are searching phone records for calls made to known terrorist phones. 

In my mind those are a long way from "spying."

NoCoPilot wrote:

06.24.2013
From what I understand of the situation the NSA is not really "spying" on ordinary Americans, despite Fox News' spin. What they're doing is running emails through software that searches for certain trigger words. They are searching phone records for calls made to known terrorist phones. 

In my mind those are a long way from "spying."

There's certainly a lot of spin going on. According to the apologists, they only monitor emails from or to foreigners. Then when you dig for a few more details, you find that if they aren't sure who you are, they treat you as a foreigner - which pretty much means that they get to monitor almost everybody (just in case). And so on. Every time you hear an excuse for why what they are doing is limited and justifiable, it shortly becomes apparent that there are huge exceptions to "the rules", and they are really doing whatever the hell they feel like.

Show me the first case of an American prosecuted for saying "fuck" pr even "fuck Obama" and I'll get worried.

NoCoPilot wrote:

Show me the first case of an American prosecuted for saying "fuck" pr even "fuck Obama" and I'll get worried.

Ever hear of Lenny Bruce?

Yeah. I think he died a long time ago.

Yes, he did. But before that he was arrested and prosecuted for saying "fuck."
So, are you worried now?

_Howard wrote:

Yes, he did. But before that he was arrested and prosecuted for saying "fuck."
So, are you worried now?

Actually a town up north just arrested some dude, refused his ticket payment and all after he said fuck your town on the ticket. http://jalopnik.com/man-arrested-over-reply-to-speeding-ticket-fuck-your-513376890

Clear First Amendment violation, it'll never stick. And Lenny Bruce is one reason we now have those protections.

I didn't participate in this, but only because I didn't find out about it until too late. Maybe we should keep sending and posting the message until they get sick of us.

Quote :

Hey! How’s it going? I’m all right.

My job is so shitty I wish I could overthrow my boss. It’s like this oppressive regime where only true believers in his management techniques will stay around. I work marathon-length hours and he’s made all these changes that have made it the worst architecture firm to work at in Manhattan. Like he moved the office to the Financial District and fired my assistant. She was the only one who knew where the blueprints were! I need access to those blueprints to complete my job! F my life, right? And he keeps trying to start all these new initiatives to boost revenue, but seriously we just need to stick to what we do best. There’s only one true profit center. I seriously feel ready to go on strike at any second.

I just read this article about how these free radical particles can cause the downfall of good health and accelerate aging. These could actually cause death to millions of Americans. If these particles are flying around undetected everywhere, does that mean we’re all radicalized?

Have you seen the second season of Breaking Bad? I just finished it. I couldn’t believe that episode where they poison the guy with ricin! That was the bomb! I won’t say any more because I don’t want to reveal the earth-shattering events to come.

Oh! So I’ve been planning a big trip for the summer. I’m thinking of visiting all of the most famous suspension bridges in the United States. So probably like the Golden Gate Bridge, The Brooklyn Bridge, and the Verrazano Narrows Bridge. I’m gonna bring my younger brother and I know he’ll want to go to bars, so I’m thinking of getting him a fake drivers license, but I hope that doesn’t blow up in my face.

Okay, I gotta run! I’m late for flight school. I missed the last class where we learn how to land, so I really can’t miss another one. Talk to you later!

Quote :

There’s only one true profit center.

Seriously???

It works when you are reading the script, like when you call all your friends and leave the message on their voicemail.

richard09 wrote:

It works when you are reading the script, like when you call all your friends and leave the message on their voicemail.

Except the NSA can't listen to RANDOM phone calls.

NoCoPilot wrote:

Except the NSA can't listen to phone calls.

omfg

Yes, it's all just clean fun.

If you want a quick summary of the two sides, this debate from Democracy Now! sums it up pretty well.