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richard09

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PostSubject: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:44 pm

This secrecy garbage gets bizarre. Files from fifty years ago are too sensitive to release? Really?

Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced
Quote :
The CIA must face claims over withheld records related to the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and his brother, Sen. Robert Kennedy, a federal judge ruled.
    Anthony Bothwell sued the CIA in November 2013 for denying his records request under the Freedom of Information Act relating to five people who may have been involved in the Kennedy assassinations in 1963 and 1968.
Quote :
The CIA told Bothwell that it no responsive records were generated for the three people possibly connected to the JFK assassination and if such records did exist, they would be FOIA-exempt as "intelligence sources and methods information."
    It flat-out denied the records request pertaining to the two individuals allegedly associated with RFK's assassination, saying that the records are "operational files" and are exempt from the FOIA.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:32 pm

Some secrets are better left buried.
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_Howard
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:16 pm

You are assuming that there are secrets.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:20 pm

Yes.
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_Howard
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:29 pm

Why?
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:31 pm

Because the Warren Commission report doesn't make sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:34 pm

Wow. A government report that doesn't make sense. I'm shocked.  Rolling Eyes 

What about it bothers you?
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:43 pm

That could take volumes to delineate...

But the top three would be:
1.  Oswald had no reason to want to. or history of threatening to, shoot a president
2.  He was demonstrably not that good a shot
3.  Ruby had no reason to be there during the prisoner transfer
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:54 pm

NoCoPilot wrote:
Oswald had no reason to want to. or history of threatening to, shoot a president
Oswald was a fucking wacko. How do you know whether or not he had a reason for shooting anyone?  John Hinckley had no history of threatening to shoot a president. Sirhan Sirhan had no history of threatening to shoot a presidential candidate. Mark Chapman had no history of threatening to shoot a Beatle.

NoCoPilot wrote:
He was demonstrably not that good a shot.
I'm a lousy darts player, but I have been known to occasionally get a bulls eye.
How was Oswald "demonstrably" not a good shot? Dealey Plaza is a very small place. With a 4x18 scope, one needn't be an expert marksman to make that shot.

NoCoPilot wrote:
Ruby had no reason to be there during the prisoner transfer
Well, he apparently did, or he wouldn't have been there. It appears to me that the reason he had for being there was to shoot Oswald. Or do you mean that he had no other reason for being there - that you know of - and that invalidates the Warren Report?
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:07 pm

Read up.

Even if you stay away from the certifiable nutcase research, there's enough solid sober evidence to induce serious doubt. Several programs have recreated the shooting, using trained marksmen, and proven that it is possible -- but by no means easy, expecially with the rifle Oswald supposedly used and with his lack of experience shooting -- much less shooting this particular rifle.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:14 pm

_Howard wrote:
 John Hinckley had no history of threatening to shoot a president. Sirhan Sirhan had no history of threatening to shoot a presidential candidate. Mark Chapman had no history of threatening to shoot a Beatle.
Quote :
Hinckley became obsessed with the 1976 film Taxi Driver, in which a disturbed protagonist, Travis Bickle, played by Robert De Niro, plots to assassinate a presidential candidate.
Quote :
During a search of Sirhan's apartment after his arrest, a spiral-bound notebook was found containing a diary entry which demonstrated that his anger had gradually fixated on Robert Kennedy, who had promised to send 50 fighter jets to Israel if he were elected president. Sirhan's journal entry of May 18, 1968, read: "My determination to eliminate R.F.K. is becoming the more and more of an unshakable obsession...Kennedy must die before June 5th".
Quote :
Three months prior to the murder Chapman allegedly started planning to kill Lennon.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:27 pm

No thanks. I did all the reading I want to on this issue many years ago.

Maybe Oswald was a lousy shot and he was aiming at Jackie, or Connally. And I would doubt the abilities of "trained marksmen" who couldn't make that shot. And why would you arbitrarily dismiss the possibility that Oswald just got off a lucky shot? It happens.

Quote :
During his Marine Corps service in December 1956, Oswald scored a rating of sharpshooter (twice achieving 48 and 49 out of 50 shots during rapid fire at a stationary target 200 yards [183 m] away using a standard issue M1 Garand semi-automatic rifle), although in May 1959, he qualified as a marksman (a lower classification than that of sharpshooter). Military experts, after examining his records, characterized his firearms proficiency as "above average" and said he was, when compared to American civilian males of his age, "an excellent shot".

FBI tests wrote:
FBI firearms expert Robert A. Frazier testified that "It is a very accurate weapon. The targets we fired show that." From 15 yards (14 m), all three bullets in a test firing landed approximately 2½ inches high, and 1-inch (25 mm) to the right, in the area about the size of a dime. At 100 yards (91 m), the test shots landed 2½ to 5 inches (130 mm) high, within a 3 to 5-inch (130 mm) circle. Frazier testified that the scope's high variation would actually work in the shooter's favor: with a target moving away from the shooter, no lead correction would have been necessary to follow the target. "At that range, at that distance, 175 feet (53 m) to 265 feet (81 m), with this rifle and that telescopic sight, I would not have allowed any lead — I would not have made any correction for lead merely to hit a target of that size."

The shot was only 265 feet - and he shot three times. For fuck's sake, when I was active, I could have made that shot in my sleep.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:42 pm

We're arguing hypotheticals. Yes it's possible. No, it's not likely. Or motivated. Or the most reasonable explanation.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:49 pm

Then what is the most reasonable explanation? Castro? Mafia? Johnson? CIA?

And WHY does there have to be a "reasonable" explanation?  Shit happens!

I don't trust conspiracy theorists. I think they are organized and are planning something.  Shocked 
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:04 am

_Howard wrote:
Then what is the most reasonable explanation? Castro? Mafia? Johnson? CIA?
Three out of the four.  I believe, based on Sam Giancana's book and a few other sources, that organized crime arranged for a highly-skilled Cuban gunman to take out Kennedy.  Oswald was either a carefully-planted patsy -- as he maintained until his death -- or a complete accident, which seems more likely.  Giancana had CIA ties, the Cuban dissidents were still seething at Kennedy for pulling out of the Bay of Pigs and leaving them high-and-dry, and the CIA was heavily involved in the effort to overthrow Castro.  Hell, it may even have been Castro's revenge for the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis.

The CIA's involvement -- even by proxy and by accident, as I believe is likely -- is why the whole truth has been covered up and prevented from ever being definitively proven.  This is about as close as we're ever going to get.
Quote :
According to the recently declassified CIA "Family Jewels" documents, Giancana and Tampa/Miami Syndicate leader Santo Trafficante, Jr. were contacted in September 1960, about the possibility of an assassination attempt by a go-between from the CIA, Robert Maheu, after Maheu had contacted Johnny Roselli, a Mafia member in Las Vegas and Giancana's number-two man. Maheu had presented himself as a representative of numerous international business firms in Cuba that were being expropriated by Castro. He offered $150,000 for the "removal" of Castro through this operation (the documents suggest that neither Roselli, Giancana, nor Trafficante accepted any sort of payments for the job). According to the files, it was Giancana who suggested using a series of poison pills that could be used to doctor Castro's food and drink. These pills were given by the CIA to Giancana's nominee, Juan Orta, whom Giancana presented as being a corrupt official in the new Cuban government and who had access to Castro. After a series of six attempts to introduce the poison into Castro's food, Orta abruptly demanded to be let out of the mission, handing over the job to another, unnamed participant. Later, a second attempt was mounted through Giancana and Trafficante using Dr. Anthony Verona, the leader of the Cuban Exile Junta, who had, according to Trafficante, become "disaffected with the apparent ineffectual progress of the Junta". Verona requested $10,000 in expenses and $1,000 worth of communications equipment. However, it is unclear how far the second attempt went, as the entire program was canceled shortly thereafter due to the launching of the Bay of Pigs Invasion in April 1961.[17][18][19]
Johnson was just an innocent beneficiary. He didn't seriously scale back the Mafia investigation until they called his bluff by taking out Bobby.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:10 pm

Oh, well, if you can't trust Sam Giancana, who can you trust?

Yes, the CIA tried to Kill Castro, and they fucked up the Bay of Pigs op - which Kennedy had approved after taking office; he did not pull out of it. It failed because of the CIA's lack of military capability.

You wrote:
During a search of Sirhan's apartment after his arrest, a spiral-bound notebook was found containing a diary entry which demonstrated that his anger had gradually fixated on Robert Kennedy, who had promised to send 50 fighter jets to Israel if he were elected president. Sirhan's journal entry of May 18, 1968, read: "My determination to eliminate R.F.K. is becoming the more and more of an unshakable obsession...Kennedy must die before June 5th".
You then wrote:
Johnson was just an innocent beneficiary. He didn't seriously scale back the Mafia investigation until they called his bluff by taking out Bobby.
So which is it, Sirhan or the Mafia?

All of this makes a lovely story - quick: call Oliver Stone!
But I've heard it all before and find nothing compelling in any of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:22 pm

Check your facts. The reason BoP failed is that Kennedy scaled back the resources at the 11th hour.

And the Sirhan diaries are just a wee bit convenient don't you think?
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:47 pm

NoCoPilot wrote:
Check your facts. The reason BoP failed is that Kennedy scaled back the resources at the 11th hour.

The only thing  Kennedy scaled back was a minor (but flawed) change in the air picture. He is often accused of refusing to send in "promised" air power, warships, and American landing forces. In fact, these were never a part of the original plan and he had specifically told the CIA that it would not happen. And it didn't, but the CIA had falsely assumed that if things turned to shit, Kennedy would give in and allow an American invasion.

The fucking plan was idiotic from the beginning and anyone with a three-digit IQ could have predicted the outcome. Add in the fact that American newspapers had run articles about the CIA training Cubans for an invasion, and Castro expecting it and preparing for it, and you have a tasty recipe for abject failure.

Kennedy's biggest mistake where the Bay of Pigs is concerned - in my opinion - was in not rejecting it when he inherited the plan from Eisenhower.

NoCoPilot wrote:
And the Sirhan diaries are just a wee bit convenient don't you think?
But...but...but...you brought it up and used it to justify your prior argument.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:59 pm

I reserve the right to move the goalposts at any time to foster a win for my side.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:14 am

It could also be that a conspiracy was possible, plausible, and even in the works... but then Oswald showed up and beat them to the punch.

I saw an excellent documentary called 'JFK: The Lost Bullet' which pretty much puts to rest any doubt as to whether Oswald himself was directly responsible for the assassination.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:00 am

Doubt that he was, or wasn't the assassin?
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:59 am

The documentary puts to rest any doubt that Oswald was not the assassin. Iow, they pretty conclusively and neatly show he was. The question of any others being involved is not even touched on. The doc stays focused on the now digitally restored videos that exist, specific eyewitnesses at the time,  and replicating ballistic analysis with laser measurements and military expertise. The 3 shots, how and where they were shot from, and how they behaved after being shot from Oswalds rifle is sole focus of the re-enactment/experiment to determine facts of what actually happened. Conspiracy theories were really treated as irrelevant.
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:26 pm

Regardless of who killed either Kennedy, I think it's highly likely that everyone mentioned in the CIA files is dead. Methods and sources (like everything else) have changed radically in the last 50 years. Why must the files remain secret?
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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:58 pm

SAI2 wrote:
The documentary puts to rest any doubt that Oswald was not the assassin. Iow, they pretty conclusively and neatly show he was. The question of any others being involved is not even touched on. The doc stays focused on the now digitally restored videos that exist, specific eyewitnesses at the time,  and replicating ballistic analysis with laser measurements and military expertise. The 3 shots, how and where they were shot from, and how they behaved after being shot from Oswalds rifle is sole focus of the re-enactment/experiment to determine facts of what actually happened. Conspiracy theories were really treated as irrelevant.
Or, more accurately, they prove that Kennedy was shot from the 6th floor Depository window.

They can't prove who pulled the trigger.

I agree that the grassy knoll and second gunmen theories are bogus. I've seen the same analysis.

That does not prove to me that the very unlikely role of Lee Harvey Oswald is proven.


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PostSubject: Re: Kennedy Assassination Info Request Advanced   Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:00 pm

richard09 wrote:
Why must the files remain secret?
Can you imagine the public outrage -- the Congressional umbrage -- the damage to the CIA and their financing from revelations that they killed Kennedy -- even accidentally, by proxy?
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