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 Concealed Carry Reciprocity

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NoCoPilot

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PostSubject: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:54 am

Quote :
TODAY'S BIG THING: THE CONCEALED CARRY RECIPROCITY ACT OF 2017

On December 6, 2017 the House voted to pass the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 (HR 38).

WHAT DO I NEED TO KNOW ABOUT IT?

This bill will serve three primary purposes:

   Protects Americans’ constitutional rights by ensuring that law-abiding citizens’ Second Amendment right does not end when they cross state lines. It allows people with a state-issued concealed carry license or permit, or individuals who are citizens of states that do not require a permit to carry a concealed firearm, to carry a concealed handgun in any other state that allows concealed carry, as long as the individual follows the laws of that state.

   Enhances Public Safety. The facts show that citizens who carry a concealed handgun are not only better prepared to act in their own self-defense, but also in the defense of others. A 2013 peer-reviewed study in Applied Economic Letters, found that between 1980 and 2009, “states with more restrictive concealed carry laws had gun-related murder rates that were 10% higher.” Additionally, a 2013 survey of 15,000 current and retired police officers found that more than 90% of them support the concealed carry of guns by civilians.  

   Strengthens Federal Firearms Background Check System. Included in this bill is the bipartisan, bicameral bill, the Fix NICS Act, which ensures that federal and state authorities comply with existing law and report criminal history records to National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). The Fix NICS Act penalizes federal agencies that fail to report relevant criminal records to the FBI, incentivizes states to improve their reporting, and directs federal funding to make sure domestic violence records are accurately reported to the FBI.  

       (courtesy of the House Judiciary Committee)

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR ME AND MY FAMILY?

This is about the protection of your constitutional rights.

Currently, every state in the United States allows, in some form or another, for concealed carry.

The specific laws vary from state to state, creating a bureaucratic mess for those who need or wish to cross state lines with their legally-licensed firearms. This legislation would end the hodgepodge.

Imagine if this were the same case with your driver's license.

Your driver's license is a state-issued document that certifies you are both capable and legally allowed to drive a car. That license isn’t invalidated when crossing state lines, as you are still capable and legally certified to operate your vehicle. This legislation does the same. But to take it one step further, if we allow a driver’s license for driving — which is a privilege, not a right — then we can most certainly do the same for the Second Amendment — which is a right, not a privilege.

BUT AREN’T GUNS THE PROBLEM?

No. As with every piece of legislation regarding your Second Amendment rights, the critics are loud.

No, this legislation will not make it easier for dangerous parties to purchase firearms.

No, this legislation will not allow people to carry who shouldn’t be allowed to possess firearms in the first place.

No, passing nationwide concealed carry reciprocity will not arm criminals or increase gun violence.

For more examples and how to answer these misconceptions, see the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act Myth v. Facts.

At the end of the day, this is about ensuring the safety and security of the American people while enacting commonsense regulations to standardize cross-state carry reciprocity. Self-defense is a fundamental right, and it was the Supreme Court that ruled that “the inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right,” which is, “the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation.” (District of Columbia v. Heller 2008).

I have never owned a gun, never even touched one since getting my shooting merit badge in the Boy Scouts.  The violence with which a gun spits out the bullet scared me, and I decided then-and-there that I wanted nothing to do with them.

I have tried all my life to avoid situations of potential violence.  I have considered what I would do if attacked, but luckily have never had to deal with the situation in real life.

Yet this Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act actually makes some kind of sense to me.  People who go through the effort to get a permit are law-abiding, and generally responsible I think.  They are not the problem.

Going across state lines with a CCP (into a state that allows CC) should not be a problem.  The license analogy is bogus, but the logic behind it is solid.

The person most likely to be injured by concealed carry is the carrier.  The right to harm yourself -- even inadvertently -- should not be abridged.
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:19 pm

NoCoPilot wrote:
Yet this Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act actually makes some kind of sense to me.  People who go through the effort to get a permit are law-abiding, and generally responsible I think.  They are not the problem.

You didn't read carefully.

Quote :
It allows people with a state-issued concealed carry license or permit, or individuals who are citizens of states that do not require a permit to carry a concealed firearm,

Not quite the same.

The law makes no sense. The Republicans just want to force the idiotic laws of Texas, etc., into more rational states. What happened to their "states' rights" bullshit?

Their use of the driver's license being honored in all states is not quite accurate either. Before California had a law requiring helmets on motorcycle riders, Arizona would not allow California bikers without helmets to cross the state line.

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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:54 pm

_Howard wrote:
You didn't read carefully.

Quote :
It allows people with a state-issued concealed carry license or permit, or individuals who are citizens of states that do not require a permit to carry a concealed firearm

Not quite the same.
Yes, but don't forget THIS provision:
Quote :
It allows people with a state-issued concealed carry license or permit, or individuals who are citizens of states that do not require a permit to carry a concealed firearm, to carry a concealed handgun in any other state that allows concealed carry, as long as the individual follows the laws of that state.
Arizona did not allow helmet-less riding. But concealed carry is a lot more universal:
Quote :
Forty-two states generally require a state-issued permit in order to carry concealed weapons in public (“CCW” permit). The remaining eight (Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Kansas, Maine, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming) generally allow individuals to carry concealed weapons in public without a permit. (However, seven of these eight states still issue CCW permits; individuals may desire them to qualify for an exemption from federal law’s background check requirements when purchasing a firearm, or so that they may carry concealed weapons in other states). Additionally, Mississippi allows individuals to carry concealed loaded handguns in public without a permit only if the handgun is kept in a purse, satchel, briefcase, or similar item, or in a fully enclosed case.
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:10 pm

If you live in a state that gives you a permit to carry concealed without any training or background check, why should you be able to carry your gun in a state that requires both?
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:18 pm

Because law-abiding citizens are not the problem?
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:22 pm

NoCoPilot wrote:
Yes, but don't forget THIS provision:
Quote :
It allows people with a state-issued concealed carry license or permit, or individuals who are citizens of states that do not require a permit to carry a concealed firearm, to carry a concealed handgun in any other state that allows concealed carry, as long as the individual follows the laws of that state.

As I read it, that says that as long as you are in compliance with the laws of the state from which you come, you would be allowed to carry a concealed weapon in any state. If you read it to mean that the person must be in compliance with the laws of the state he enters, then the law is meaningless. So I think my first interpretation of the phrase is the right one.
As far as I know, all states allow carrying a concealed weapon, some with and some without a permit. The requirements for securing such a permit vary from state to state, no doubt. But my point was that those from states which do not require a permit to carry a concealed weapon will be allowed to do so in any state.

I like living in the 21st century here in California. I don't want to be subjected to the retro-lunacy of other states.
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:23 pm

NoCoPilot wrote:
Because law-abiding citizens are not the problem?

All citizens are law abiding. Until they aren't.
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:02 pm

_Howard wrote:
As far as I know, all states allow carrying a concealed weapon, some with and some without a permit. The requirements for securing such a permit vary from state to state, no doubt.
It's like marriage.

A marriage performed in one state has to be recognized in all other states -- whether same-sex, interracial or any other variation which might be prohibited somewhere,

You are 100% correct, all states either allow concealed carry with a permit, or without any permit needed. Requirements for the permit vary from state-to-state.

What this bill does is essentially make CCWs a national document.
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:10 pm

NoCoPilot wrote:
What this bill does is essentially make CCWs a national document.

Not really. It makes one state's laws take precedence over another's. A resident of California will still have to follow the strict gun control laws we have, while allowing someone from another state to come here and ignore those laws with impunity.

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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:02 pm

Lowest common denominator?

I don't see it that way.  California's strict CCW requirements are meant to protect Californians from unqualified people.  Alabama's are too.  Only the definition changes.  In every case, a person with a CCW is probably safer than a person without one.

Even in states that don't require a CCW.  They're practiced in carrying (if they're wanting to carry into California) whereas a person without a CCW is probably not.

The idea of wanting to conceal the fact that you're carrying is either (a) a sign that you're a responsible gun owner (if permitted) or (b) a sign of nefarious intent (if the person didn't seek a permit). The latter are excluded from the law.
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:24 pm

In California (and other rational states) you have to show a valid reason for carrying a concealed weapon in order to get a permit. In the idiot states, no reason is required.

Probably about one percent of the people who feel like carrying a gun have a valid reason for it.

Rather than expand the gun-carrying crowd, I would prefer to confiscate every gun owned by anyone who cannot demonstrate a compelling reason for having the fucking things.

Handguns have one purpose: killing a human being at close range. They are not good for anything else. I think one should always keep that in mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:29 pm

I agree with you.

That’s why I don’t own a gun.

But I don’t worry about a licensed law-abiding person having a gun in my vicinity. I worry about an unlicensed scofflaw with a gun.
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:34 pm

Many years ago I was riding with a friend of a friend in his car, and the conversation turned to road rage and stupid drivers. He silently reached under his driver’s seat and pulled out a 45. He said he keeps it there — unloaded — to show to any driver who gets in his face.

It was probably illegal. Hell, I’m sure that’s not legal. And if his car ever got searched by the police that would be a very bad discovery.

But he felt it warded off trouble.
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:38 pm

NoCoPilot wrote:
But I don’t worry about a licensed law-abiding person having a gun in my vicinity.

You keep on about "law-abiding" people. One second before the trigger is pulled, that person is law abiding.

Consider the psyche of a person who deems it necessary - or just "cool" - to carry a gun without any real reason. They are not fit to carry weapons. Fucking idiots. Every last one of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:40 pm

I’m not trying to be facetious, but what about the woman who carries Mace in her purse?
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:46 pm

What about her?
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:46 pm

_Howard wrote:
You keep on about "law-abiding" people. One second before the trigger is pulled, that person is law abiding.
I’ve never been the victim of gun violence. I have no reason to fear guns or gun owners.

Nor any reason to brand all of them “idiots.”

Like any tool, a gun is just a piece of hardware. Granted, you can’t use one to hammer in a nail, and they have only one purpose.

Well two. “Deterrence.”
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:48 pm

_Howard wrote:
What about her?
Is she an “idiot” for arming herself with a tool that has only one purpose, to hurt people?
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PostSubject: Re: Concealed Carry Reciprocity   Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:50 pm

NoCoPilot wrote:
...they have only one purpose.

Well two.  “Deterrence.”

Keep telling yourself that. God knows the NRA says it often enough.

And you can use a gun to drive nails.

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