Movie: Oklahoma City

A documentary on the Murrah Building bombing in OK CIty, and the Ruby Ridge and Waco Branch Davidian disasters that led up to it.  It quickly becomes apparent that the ATF had their heads up their asses when dealing with right-wing extremists, who are heavily armed and willing to die.  They went in shooting and as a result a lot of innocent people and ATF agents died needlessly.

Timothy McVeigh took offense to this and decided to take the fight back to the government.  Unfortunately he did not know the building housed a day care.

Conspiracy theories grip these people, and without proper fact checking and balance, their radical fears about the government become self-fulfilling prophecies.

McVeigh went to his execution believing the 168 men, women and children his bomb killed struck a blow against the government. What really happened though is that his horror showed the futility fighting the government with terrorism, and the immorality of striking bystanders and non-central actors to make a fairly blunt point.

NoCoPilot wrote:

It quickly becomes apparent that the ATF had their heads up their asses when dealing with right-wing extremists, who are heavily armed and willing to die.  They went in shooting and as a result a lot of innocent people and ATF agents died needlessly.

Just my opinion (and in no way a defense of the ATF), but I believe that people who have never experienced an armed conflict should be cautious with their judgements.

In both cases the ATF initiated the shooting.

In the Waco incident, that depends on whether you want to believe the ATF or the Branch Davidians.

The first shot fired at Ruby Ridge was at a dog. The second shot was directed at a Marshal.

It ain't as simple as who fired first.

Wikipedia, on Ruby Ridge, wrote:

an initial encounter of six marshals with the Weavers resulted in a firefight and the deaths of Deputy U.S. Marshal William Francis Degan, age 42, the Weaver's son Samuel (Sammy), age 14, and a Weaver family dog, all by gunshot. The subsequent siege of the Weaver residence, led by the FBI applying especially lethal rules of engagement (ROE, subsequently called into question by U.S. Department of Justice and U.S. Senate investigators), resulted in the further death of Vicki Weaver, age 43, the wife of Randy Weaver, by FBI sniper fire.

ATF snipers were sneaking up on the isolated mountaintop Weaver compound when their dog alerted on them and started barking. Agents shot the dog to silence it.

Wikipedia, on Waco, wrote:

The incident began when the ATF attempted to raid the ranch. An intense gun battle erupted, resulting in the deaths of four government agents and six Branch Davidians. Upon the ATF's failure to raid the compound, a siege was initiated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the standoff lasting 51 days. Eventually, the FBI launched an assault and initiated a tear gas attack in an attempt to force the Branch Davidians out of the ranch. During the attack, a fire engulfed Mount Carmel Center. In total, 76 people died,[8][9] including David Koresh.

ATF agents were approaching the Branch Davidian compound to serve warrants on Koresh when shots rang out. As you stated, reports conflict on who shot first.

Either way, the denouement of both sieges was seriously mishandled.

Yes, the conclusions of the events were not what anyone wanted, I'm sure.

It's difficult to harshly criticize the ATF or FBI (as much as I would love to). Remember, they are dealing with people who seem to be not quite stable and rational. And the wackos in Waco were given two months to come to their senses, or at least send all the children out.

Their are so many details which we know nothing about, and in some situations details are defining.

Yes, 58 days I think. So why was it necessary to start ramming the buildings with tanks? What caused the government to have to move, what changed?

Answer: embarrassment. No other reason, embarrassment and ego.. okay TWO reasons, embarrassment and ego and a colossal need for power. Three reasons.

See there, that's the point I was trying to make.
You don't know why they did what they did.
Nor do I.
But I am not anxious to make assumptions.

I'm not willing to give the government a flat "innocent-until-proven-guilty" waiver, especially since they keep repeating these heinous assaults that result in mass casualties. The ATF seems to be run by a bunch of cowboys, to whom projecting power is more important than keeping the peace.

I'll grant you that well-armed anti-government activists holed up in a cabin in the woods present a unique challenge to the authority of the United States government. Men who have a problem with that probably should not be allowed to own guns.

I'm not giving anyone a waiver, I'm just admitting to not knowing the full accounting of the incidents. As for your remark, "they keep repeating these heinous assaults that result in mass casualties," I think that's a bit hyperbolic: I only count two.

NoCoPilot wrote:

I'll grant you that well-armed anti-government activists holed up in a cabin in the woods present a unique challenge to the authority of the United States government.  Men who have a problem with that probably should not be allowed to own guns.

So you're saying that only the wackos should be allowed to own guns?

Isn't that how it works now?