HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  UsergroupsUsergroups  RegisterRegister  Log in  

Share | 
 

 Was The Election Rigged?

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
AuthorMessage
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Was The Election Rigged?   Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:54 pm

Back to top Go down
View user profile
richard09

avatar

Posts : 2473
Join date : 2013-01-16

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:37 am

I'm inclined to agree. It's not entirely clear how they dd it, but they did. It's worth noting that the methodology doesn't have to be the same everywhere. The Florida state apparatus has been under the thumb of corrupt Republicans since before the 2000 election, and was pretty clearly rigged in 2000. (Much attention was paid to new electronic voting machines without a paper trail. Actually, their results looked OK, but precincts that used older machines that involve scanning ballots produced some very unlikely results that the mainstream media ignored.) Noticing that it was basically impossible for Trump to have won Florida 2016 is not really a surprise.

But other states don't have to have done the exact same thing. The American election systems are riddled with weaknesses and lack of auditability.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:40 am

The Republican party had the motive, and the Koch brothers had the money. I wonder how they did it, and it they'll ever be found out? And if they were, maybe a year down the road, what would happen?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
_Howard
Admin
avatar

Posts : 7405
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 73
Location : California

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:27 pm

Yes, the election is rigged, and much of it was done publicly: The voter suppression laws were enacted to rig the election. Various illegal voter purges are conducted to rig the election. The use of voting machines that cannot be verified can be used to rig the election, and they are widely used.

But the Republicans are still not happy. After the 2012 election, they pondered ways of making all states be required to award electoral votes by Congressional district. If this had been in place in 2012, Romney would now be president. And the gerrymandering that gives us this partisan redistricting was all done in public.

The Republicans will continue to attempt to make it impossible for a non-Republican to win an election anywhere, but especially the presidency. And the Electoral College is a perfect system for rigging elections.

When the United Nations or the United States monitors a foreign election, they do so through the use of exit polling. The metrics are such that our recent presidential election would not have passed muster, and would have been seen as invalid.

It is pointed out that only five times in the country's history has the winner of the majority of votes not been elected president. That is eleven percent of the presidents who were not, according to many, legitimately elected. If the rules are changed to make the recipient of the majority of votes the winner of the election, and it is required that all votes are cast in a manner that makes them verifiable, it will be very much  harder, maybe impossible, to rig the election.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
richard09

avatar

Posts : 2473
Join date : 2013-01-16

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:14 pm

Looking back at this article, the final paragraph struck me as amusing.
Tod Beardsley, senior research manager at Rapid7 wrote:
While this sort of infiltration is possible, such a campaign would require formidable espionage assets, have a high risk of being detected before the election, and the effects would be noticeable in bizarrely inaccurate exit polling during and after the election.
Of course, we don't think it was the Russians, rather the Republicans. But shouldn't the same evidence count?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
_Howard
Admin
avatar

Posts : 7405
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 73
Location : California

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:20 pm

More attention needs to be paid to the exit polls. And the god damned newscasters have to learn to differentiate between exit polls and predictive polling.

In the 2004 election, there were several of the battleground states in which the exit polls differed significantly with the reported vote count. And in every case, the difference was several points in Bush's favor. Hell, in one district, Bush received a vote count that was greater than the total number of votes cast.

The Republican Party is not to be trusted with anything.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:52 pm

I'm inclined to believe, or at least entertain the idea, that this election was totally rigged.  Circumstantial evidence is just too overwhelming to dismiss the thought.

But the crux of the nugget here is "how did they do it?"  Yes, they suppressed the vote, yes they did everything they could to prevent Democratic voters from getting to the polls.  But this is in addition to that.

They did something to the counting of the voters that made it to the polls.  The exit polling proves that.  But what?  How did they jigger votes under so many different jurisdictions, using so many different voting methods, under the watch of so many election monitors?

Will they be found out?  It's possible the answer is no.  They're so good at what they did that maybe they deserve to win, just because they're smarter than everybody else.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:58 pm

NoCoPilot wrote:
How did they jigger votes under so many different jurisdictions, using so many different voting methods, under the watch of so many election monitors?
It strikes me that the logical place is not at the precinct level, but at the state consolidators, where the precincts are tallied.

Check this out:
http://madisonvoices.com/pdffiles/2008_2012_ElectionsResultsAnomaliesAndAnalysis_V1.5.pdf


Last edited by NoCoPilot on Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
_Howard
Admin
avatar

Posts : 7405
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 73
Location : California

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:59 pm

Being more venal, evil, immoral, and corrupt does not make you smarter.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:02 pm

It does if nobody catches you.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:12 pm

The study linked above very clearly lays out the "what" of how the fraud took place. We still don't know the "how" and without that it would be impossible to begin to dismantle this stolen election.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:52 pm

Diebold vote tabulators were designed with election fraud as an option.

This could be a window into the HOW:
Quote :
a reply to: bbarkow

I just read the source. I am a computer analyst and have been programming large computer systems for the past 25 years.

Here is the main kicker in the article:
"Source code: Instructions to treat votes as decimal values instead of whole numbers are inserted multiple times in the GEMS source code itself; thus, this feature cannot have been created by accident."

This is very true. There is no reason to do this in the code for this type of application.
Source
Quote :
For 15 years, GEMS has been described as flawed and full of security holes. Smith may be one of the first researchers to express respect for GEMS’ sophistication. Researchers have pointed out that with GEMS, votes can be flipped to reverse candidate totals. Smith counters that in a real election such an approach would appear almost cartoonish, with Black Democratic strongholds voting for White Republicans and vice versa. At the very least, simple vote-flipping is reckless and imprecise. On one level, GEMS enables crude manipulations by local users, but on a deeper level it offers refined and scaled-up control to persons who are provided with a specific kind of utility.

Smith first imagined the necessary program structure to create a product capable of selling election results. He then examined GEMS to rule out the existence of such a framework. To his surprise, the more he tried to rule it out, the more the framework was ruled in. Smith further concluded that it wasn’t even necessary to build an exploit. Instead he built a tool to work within the already existing design. Smith struggles with the terms “hack” and “exploit” because what he designed was already facilitated in GEMS.

One would not expect to find such an architecture in a voting system. Indeed, though GEMS violates U.S. Voluntary Voting System Technical Guidelines in broad strokes 1 the guidelines never address fractional votes.

GEMS is more complex than we have described. It involves an elaborate maze of normalization with generic column names. Relationship mappings are omitted. Overlapping nomenclature uses the same identifier to represent different data sources. Queries are generic and the output is the product of all included tables. Information displayed in queries is often replicated in several variations with cryptic or missing notations. Internal and shrouded data structures and reports are hidden in the executable.

In short, to sell election results, either someone needs to hand the utility to you or you have to don hip boots, a caver’s headlamp and a helmet and submerge yourself into GEMS, where, after you slog through the mess, you will find exactly what you need already waiting for you. The fractional vote program is best described as an inside tool.
Source
Back to top Go down
View user profile
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:47 pm


These videos were prepared by & for the right-wing nutjob Alex Jones, but the research presented is by Bev Harris, a local Seattle-area researcher whose website, BlackBoxVoting.org, is non-partisan. The security holes and fraud methodologies she explains could be used by either party.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:51 pm

On reflection, I don't think Bev Harris's findings, in 2004, on fractional vote counting, have anything to do with the Madison Voices 2012 study, which deals with "vote flipping" tied to the size of precincts.

Similar methodologies may be involved, and in both cases it is the vote tabulation consolidators that are the locus of the fraud, but the results are entirely different. I'm not convinced Bev's results are very impactful, and certainly they're easier to identify and thus harder to hide.

The Madison results are statistical anomalies, much more subtle, and surprisingly much more impactful.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
richard09

avatar

Posts : 2473
Join date : 2013-01-16

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:21 am

After the Republican gerrymandering shenanigans of 2010, they probably have control of most of the vote tabulation. So it looks as if (after that) the Democrats can only win the election if their candidate is overwhelmingly popular. Which goes some way to explain the epic Karl Roe meltdown in 2012. For some reason, he was very sure that Ohio was going to Romney, despite everybody calling the state for Obama. I wonder why?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
kilo

avatar

Posts : 138
Join date : 2015-06-28

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:49 am

Quote :
"I believe the most likely explanation is that the polls were systematically wrong, rather than that the election was hacked," Halderman, a professor of computer science at the University of Michigan, wrote in a blog post on Medium. "But I don't believe that either one of these seemingly unlikely explanations is overwhelmingly more likely than the other."  That's where some statisticians and elections experts disagree.  

Nate Cohn, a reporter at The New York Times who covers polling and demographics, and Nate Silver, who runs the polling statistics website FiveThirtyEight, both say the differences between the polls and the results don't point to any irregularities.  

David Becker, an elections expert who has consulted with many voting officials throughout the US, said hacking is a less likely explanation for the surprise election outcome than bad polling is.  

What's more, he says the logistics of picking the best states to target and hacking their closely guarded -- albeit flawed -- electronic voting machines would be "Herculean." The process would also include guessing the right number of votes to flip from Hillary Clinton to Trump.
 

maybe yes, maybe no
Back to top Go down
View user profile
richard09

avatar

Posts : 2473
Join date : 2013-01-16

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:53 am

I don't believe the voting machines were hacked, either. It's much more feasible, logistically, to fuck with the process where the totals for a precinct are being compiled. You only have to corrupt that tabulation process, not the individual voting machines. Of course, your cheating would be exposed by an audit, but that's why the Republicans favor voting machines that don't leave an audit trail. Get those in place, and you don't leave hard evidence behind.

Also, one state that needs to get checked is Florida. That result was ridiculous - Clinton essentially won Florida before election day, in the early voting.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
_Howard
Admin
avatar

Posts : 7405
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 73
Location : California

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:16 pm

Jill Stein is calling for a recount.
She has three millions dollars of the seven needed for the recounts. I wonder why Clinton or  the Democratic Party aren't chipping in.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:28 pm

Even with $7m I sincerely doubt Jill Stein could convince any GOP operatives to agree to a recount.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
_Howard
Admin
avatar

Posts : 7405
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 73
Location : California

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:19 pm

It isn't a matter of convincing anyone to cooperate. Every state has laws regarding recounts. In many case, all that is required - if you have standing - is to filie a request and show the money.
Of course, the Republicans will oppose any recount and try to subvert the law. And they are very good at that, as we all know.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:51 pm

Can you imagine the shitstorm if a recount was granted, and the results were different? You think there's chaos now?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
_Howard
Admin
avatar

Posts : 7405
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 73
Location : California

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:41 pm

Can you imagine the shit storm that awaits us - and the rest of the world - if  The Angry Cheeto takes power? A reversal of the  election results would be comparatively trivial.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
kilo

avatar

Posts : 138
Join date : 2015-06-28

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:43 pm

As with so many conspiracy theories, some suspension of disbelief is required. In this case we just have to marvel at the discipline and commitment of the GOP operatives who pulled off a multi-state, large-scale election fraud without a single data leak, computer glitch, or blabbermouthed insider spilling the beans.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
NoCoPilot

avatar

Posts : 11201
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 63
Location : Seattle

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:24 pm

Read the 2012 paper I linked to above.

The election fraud doesn't have to be widespread -- a single or a few vote consolidators in swing states would be all that would be required. The individual precincts are not involved. It's done at the state level.

No large scale conspiracy. One or two guys with some programming expertise. The Diebold consolidators have remote-in capabilities, surprisingly.

And the method outlined in the paper is clever. It flips votes, rather than adding anything to the total, so the overall totals stay the same. And it flips votes based on a percentage of the precinct size, so smaller precincts (where the populace is predictable) don't get suspicious.

I read an analysis of this paper which thought the methodology described didn't make sense. But if you read the whole thing, the author addressed this objection within the body of the paper. Precinct size is not an indicator of political persuasion. Rural precincts are not larger in vote totals than urban precincts.

Great paper. Now all we need is some way to prove it.

Jill Stein's recount won't mean shit -- they'll just jigger the consolidator again.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
_Howard
Admin
avatar

Posts : 7405
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 73
Location : California

PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:44 pm

kilo wrote:
As with so many conspiracy theories, some suspension of disbelief is required.  In this case we just have to marvel at the discipline and commitment of the GOP operatives who pulled off a multi-state, large-scale election fraud without a single data leak, computer glitch, or blabbermouthed insider spilling the beans.  

I do not believe that there was any widespread conspiracy. I do believe there is a good possibility of a tacit understanding by various election officials to give a little nudge here and there.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Was The Election Rigged?   

Back to top Go down
 
Was The Election Rigged?
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 5Go to page : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Obama - Top 10 facts proving election was rigged
» Eastleigh Election .....who will win.?
» Eastleigh by-election: Maria Hutchings , Tory party's "loose cannon"
» Most likely result of the general election in 2015?
» Hashtag politics and the general election

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
 :: Topics :: Government & Finance-
Jump to: