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_Howard
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_Howard


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PostSubject: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyWed Dec 02, 2015 6:04 pm

Is it possible that our elected officials will ever grow the balls needed to take steps against this kind of shit?

Are they such venal cowards that they will continue to let the NRA drag them around by their nut sacks, rather than do what is needed to minimize or prevent this?
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richard09

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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyWed Dec 02, 2015 7:02 pm

In a word, yes.
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NoCoPilot

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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyWed Dec 02, 2015 7:15 pm

This kind of thing is normal in many parts of the world. The US is just coming into it being normal here.

It's not a good thing.
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richard09

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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyWed Dec 02, 2015 7:16 pm

I know Noco doesn't like Salon, but this caught my eye.

Quote :
As of this November 27 attack on Planned Parenthood, ShootingTracker.com documented at least 351 media reports on different mass shootings in the U.S. in 2015. On average, then, there has been more than one mass shooting every day this year.

The U.S. leads the world in mass shootings. This is the real manifestation of “American exceptionalism” — America is exceptionally violent.
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_Howard
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyThu Dec 03, 2015 11:21 am

NoCoPilot wrote:
This kind of thing is normal in many parts of the world.  The US is just coming into it being normal here.

Which other countries have daily mass shootings, unconnected to insurgencies, etc.?
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NoCoPilot

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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyThu Dec 03, 2015 11:26 am

I didn't say unconnected to insurgencies. I meant daily mass casualties among civilians.
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_Howard
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyThu Dec 03, 2015 11:36 am

Oh, well that's a different subject altogether.
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyThu Dec 03, 2015 2:59 pm

_Howard wrote:
Are they such venal cowards that they will continue to let the NRA drag them around by their nut sacks, rather than do what is needed to minimize or prevent this?
I wonder what "steps" you think would be necessary to prevent a recurrence? From what I've heard the guns used in this assault were all purchased legally.
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyThu Dec 03, 2015 3:17 pm

NoCoPilot wrote:
From what I've heard the guns used in this assault were all purchased legally.

And therein lies much of the problem. Why are people with no need for firearms allowed to buy them? Why are people with no training in the use of firearms allowed to have them?

The Republicans have gone nuts in the past decade or so in removing nearly all restrictions on the purchasing and possession of guns. Why do they do that? Well, to get money from the NRA and the gun manufacturers, of course, but I believe a lot of their impetus comes from the fact that they know it drives liberals nuts and they really get off on that.

Start with registration. Every gun must be registered and the registration must be renewed every year. Then how about some insurance? Every gun owner must carry a minimum of five millions dollars in liability insurance - per gun. Do away with carrying guns without a permit; and make it difficult to get such a permit. Do away with semi-automatic weapons completely - including for the police. And the list could go on....

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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyThu Dec 03, 2015 5:15 pm

More information coming out about the shooters.

This doesn't seem to be the typical workplace shooting. It would seem that these two had more in mind.
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NoCoPilot

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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 6:13 am

_Howard wrote:
Start with registration. Every gun must be registered and the registration must be renewed every year. Then how about some insurance? Every gun owner must carry a minimum of five millions dollars in liability insurance - per gun. Do away with carrying guns without a permit; and make it difficult to get such a permit. Do away with semi-automatic weapons completely - including for the police. And the list could go on....

Yes it could. I would probably go farther than you.

However, "The only defense against a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." To some extent this old NRA canard is true -- as long as guns exist in society, criminals will get their hands on them. Passing new laws won't affect that, and restricting law-abiding citizens won't affect gun violence, except in the very rare instance of a good guy shooting a bad guy.

The genie is out of the bottle. Destroying existing firearms would be the only useful avenue, and I don't see that happening for the above reason.
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 7:13 am

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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 7:19 am

Its the tobacco fight all over again, except this time the opponents hope to win.

Except, to be fair, they are different. With tobacco, there is no way to use the product which is not deleterious to your health. With firearms that's not true. With cigarettes for years the industry put out untruths about "healthier" cigarettes and downplayed evidence to the contrary. With firearms nobody has ever marketed a less-lethal gun.

True, smart guns and trigger locks could be implemented, but they wouldn't solve the problem of gun violence.

The gun problem is a conundrum.
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 8:43 am

NoCoPilot wrote:
However, "The only defense against a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."  To some extent this old NRA canard is true -- as long as guns exist in society, criminals will get their hands on them.  Passing new laws won't affect that, and restricting law-abiding citizens won't affect gun violence, except in the very rare instance of a good guy shooting a bad guy.

The genie is out of the bottle.  Destroying existing firearms would be the only useful avenue, and I don't see that happening for the above reason.

I disagree with the concept of "good guys with guns" being helpful. Look at the NRA's statement and the root of the problem is obvious: bad guys have guns. The removal of that is the goal. Treat the disease, not the symptoms.

As far as the genie being out of the bottle, that is just an excuse to do nothing. Yes, it's a very difficult problem, but just shrugging your shoulders and giving up is not a helpful response. You're right that simply passing laws won;t help, but enforcing laws could. We need to work toward the elimination of guns to the greatest extent possible. It can't be done overnight, but that is no reason not to get started on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 8:48 am

_Howard wrote:
We need to work toward the elimination of guns to the greatest extent possible. It can't be done overnight, but that is no reason not to get started on it.
Not to be simplistic, but how?

A gun buyback program isn't going to attract criminals. Confiscation isn't going to work.

What do you propose?
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 10:10 am

Outlaw the manufacture, importation, or sale of ammunition for semi-automatic guns.

That's a first step.
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 2:14 pm

You once said reloading cartridges wasn't that hard. Not true for bullet clips / belts?
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 2:25 pm

Reloading is not a difficult task. It takes the proper equipment and a little knowledge, but just about anyone can do it.

I don't understand your reference to clips (which almost no one uses) and belts. You mean machine gun belts? In any case, it's merely a matter of inserting the cartridges into the clip (you probably mean "magazine") or belt; kind of like putting new batteries into your TV remote control. Anyone who uses a weapon  so equipped must be able to do that - it's no more difficult than sliding new cartridges into a revolver.
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 2:30 pm

Clips, magazines, rounds, ammo, bullets, cartridges -- I'm not a gun guy. I got a shooting badge in Boy Scouts but haven't touched a firearm since.

So why would restricting semi-automatic ammo have any effect, if it's easy to make your own?
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 2:42 pm

One needn't be a "gun nut" to know the correct terms.

Fourteen Dead Bullet-parts

"Building your own" is not the same as reloading, which is primarily just assembling parts. You can't easily make your own bullets, unless you are satisfied with non-jacketed lead. Making primers and cases ("shells") is out of the question. Primers cannot be reused, and  cases eventually become unusable, often after only one or two uses.

The proposed ban on the manufacture of certain cartridges would also apply to the manufacture of parts for them. Thus, no new primers or cases. Can't fire the damn things without primers. Making new primers is far beyond the ability of most.
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 3:26 pm

Muskets and lead balls.

Mark my word, they're coming back. "Mall Patrons Terrorized By Blunderbuss!"
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 4:15 pm

Fourteen Dead 1090360_orig
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 5:33 pm

The FBI is now investigating the shooting as an act of terrorism. It seems that the woman had pledged her fealty to ISIS on Facebook the day of the shooting.

Facebook! There's the problem. Never trusted those people. Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptyFri Dec 04, 2015 7:28 pm

More people to give Muslims a bad name. Just feeds the Trump.
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PostSubject: Re: Fourteen Dead   Fourteen Dead EmptySat Dec 05, 2015 3:14 pm

And as long as Muslims continue such actions, and as long as the Muslim community remains silent about it, the more the bad name will perceived to be deserved.

I have no more and no less contempt for Islam than I have for Christianity and Judaism. They're all semi-insane and emotionally stunted. And no zealots of any stripe are to be trusted.
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